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If anything, the WAPF is about resurrecting a small-scale, organic farming revolution in America. If you have ever read their journal, or visited their website, you would know that they represent the antithesis of the industrial farming model currently dominating things.

If anything, the WAPF is about resurrecting a small-scale, organic farming revolution in America. If you have ever read their journal, or visited their website, you would know that they represent the antithesis of the industrial farming model currently dominating things.

Actually, I don’t much like meat (I prefer fish along with a lot of raw egg yolks) but that’s beside the point. True herbivores (four-legged) are not our “fellow herbivores” at all, unless you believe human beings have four stomachs–required to break down so much cellulose in the diet.

I repeat my earlier point: Indigenous cultures in their natural (pre-”civilized”) environment do not suffer from modern diseases. They overwhelmingly eat animal food, around which entire religious ceremonies evolved–be it for salmon, buffalo, caribou, seal, etc. Thousands of generations. If their food was bad for them, do you think they would have survived so long?

Who knows, maybe their biology is different. Maybe they’re not really human.

But the foundation named after him, comprised, and funded, overwhelmingly by animal agriculturalists, is basically has become the channel used for promoting their products. So, their statements on these issues are obviously very biased. Just like cigarette manufacturers have strenuously fought the science on smoking. And it worked for a long time. There was, you remember, a lot of confusion about the now-obvious hazards of smoking. PR is just amazing at that sort of thing. The arguments seem so convincing.

Indigenous tribes have to eat what is available. If you don’t need to harm a creature in order to survive and thrive, why harm the creature?

We can get everything we need to thrive from the same place that our fellow herbivores do. Massive, 1,000-lb. steers. Gorillas. Etc. They get all they need from plants. That’s where that silverback alpha male got his protein.

If you eat meat because you like it, just say so. But you don’t need it, and it’s not good for you. Truth.

You are correct about grassfed vs. cornfed, which is exactly my point: the quality of fat we get from industrially raised animals today differs from a century ago–the omega 3 profile is completely different, for instance. I do not fear saturated fat if it’s from a grassfed source. Most studies these days on saturated fat don’t make this distinction, and actually use hydrogenated saturated fat to “prove” their claims. Pretty sketchy.

Eating fat has the weight of history on its side. There is a reason indigenous cultures sought the fattiest parts of an animal first–because those parts were the most nutrient-dense. These cultures never developed diabetes–or any other degenerative disease–until they became “modernized” on processed food. We could stand to learn something from their experience, since we share the same biology.

pmri.org/lifestyle_program.html
engine2diet.com
drmcdougall.com/forums/index.php
foodnsport.com (buy 80/10/10 book by Graham)
30bananasaday.com
thefruitarian.com

Consumption of saturated animal fat has decreased steadily for the last century (the century during which most Americans moved off the farm–with its milk, meat, butter, and cheese–and into the city and ‘burbs). The media has told us for the last hundred years to lower our consumption of these fats. And, guess what? The rate of heart disease and cancer during the same time span has SKYROCKETED. See a connection?

Case in point: The term “coronary thrombosis” (heart attack) first appeared in a medical textbook only in 1912; before that time the condition was so rare doctors barely studied it. It’s now the #1 or #2 killer, take your pick. Interestingly, during the same decade Crisco, margarine, and other fake (trans) fats hit the grocery aisles for the first time–and housewives began steering clear of natural saturated fats (which was less profitable for the growing food “industry”).

Heart disease, cancer, and many other conditions are MODERN DISEASES. They are not caused by traditional foods, and that includes animal foods. People need to start pointing the finger at the processed/industrial food system (including industrial animal food) for these problems, and give up the broad-brush attacks on animal food per se.

http://www.westonaprice.org/blogs/denise-minger-refutes-the-china-study-once-and-for-all.html

http://www.westonaprice.org/abcs-of-nutrition/267-myths-of-vegetarianism.html

No one who has replied to my original post so far has attempted to explain why intact (not modernized) indigenous cultures are 1) not vegetarian 2) free from modern degenerative disease. This is true across the planet, historically; the Masai is but one case.

Indigenous peoples have had a few thousand generations to figure this stuff out by trial and error. That’s good enough for me.

http://thedragonfruit.wordpress.com/2010/09/24/so-what-do-you-eat/

It’s a brand-new site, and more recipes are forthcoming. I am a dedicated amateur runner increasing my mileage and working on runs in the 12-17 mile range. I feel fantastic and have noticed only improvements, no declines, in my performance.

http://www.vegsource.com/news/2009/11/the-comparative-anatomy-of-eating.html

ALL of the nutrients we need to live and thrive, we can get from plants. The same place the ANIMALS get them.

Many former vegans such as yourself have had the misfortune of living in an extremely meat-oriented society, without the benefit of a doctor, nutritionist or dietitian trained in veg*n nutrition. You probably suffered from some nutritional imbalance that you weren’t aware of. It’s easy to do. I’m lucky enough to have a vegan nutritionist for a mom and have learned plenty about the pitfalls, and how to avoid them. But this difficulty is not the fault of the vegan diet, just as not knowing how to cook Thai food is not the fault of the cuisine. You just have to learn, in either case, and learn how to do it right.

Again, all the nutrients you need to thrive can be found in more than plentiful supply in plants. Being vegan simply cuts out the middle man (and cholesterol…and pathogens…and so on).

Cholesterol: exactly. We make our own. We don’t need it from animals. If you INSIST on getting extra from food sources, just consume tropical oils. No need to pay people good money to mistreat and violently slaughter animals on too-fast slaughter lines to get more than your fill. And the reasons we “need” cholesterol? Ex., to “fill in the cracks” in our circulatory system. What causes those cracks? Stress. Well, ok, do we want to kill animals that never did anything to hurt US to fix the problem, or do we want to, you know, meditate, see a therapist, restructure our busy lives, and other positive approaches?

Re: the Masai: anecdotal. Just like all the hype in the media, leading to confusion and the throwing up of hands of hte masses: eggs are good for you! No, they’re bad for you. Wait! No, they’re good for you! Chocolate is good for you…no, bad…. Hey! acai berries…! You see hype, which is great for increasing readership and ratings on TV, but you also see, through the decades, the consistent findings by nutrition scientists (real scientists, not Eat Right for My Tax Bracket types or Atkins, who was obese all of his life and died, young, of a heart attack and who, more pertinently, weren’t real scientists and whose writings were based on nothing) are: the more of a whole-foods plant-based diet you eat, the healthier you’ll be. Oh, the mags and news segments on TV won’t say “GO VEGAN.” Because who’s advertising? Oscar Meyer, of course. But 99% of the findings will point to a plant-based diet. You can’t point to one culture of like 100 people and say, lookie! We are meant to eat meat!

Finally: read The China Study by T. Colin Campbell. Man was raised on a dairy farm, but he saw the facts, and wrote the book. The Food Revolution by John Robbins is thoroughly footnoted, as well (unlike Atkins and what’s his name). If you think what you’ll see in The Food Revolution is *natural*, then…wow….

You can maintain your weight easily by including more nuts, seeds and avocados in your diet. I promise!

Sorry to hear about the friction in your marriage. I wonder if your husband is one of those who grew up with mushy canned green beans on the side of the plate, with all the love obviously bestowed on the chunk of corpse in the center of the plate. Perhaps you could learn a few really lavish and beautiful new vegan recipes to break up the routine and/or compromise and add some Morningstar crumbles to some dishes that call for ground beef (they’re pretty convincing – many people can’t tell that they’re not actual meat). Serve them up with wine, candlelight, flowers, dessert and a lot of flirting, and see what happens (a low-cut blouse does wonders, too). After his defenses have lowered a bit, tell him in friendly tones that you know this has all been really hard on him, and you want to try something new and see if he likes that, and that if, after a couple of weeks of new culinary adventures he still is not into it, you’ll accept adding some meat to *his* portions. But, see, you can still gradually add less and less, or go half and half. Say, if it’s spaghetti and meatballs. Make half meat meatballs, and half Morningstar crumbles ones, or add half meat sausage, and half non-meat sausage. His tastes will probably eventually acclimate. You could also make some dishes with oysters for him, which make a good compromise – while technically animals, oysters almost certainly don’t feel pain.

Basically, I think that if the emphasis is really placed on what is being added to a person’s life when going vegan, rather than what is now off the table, the person gets way more into it. If your husband sees the benefit to him – in the form of a lot of great variety and all kinds of ingredients that he doesn’t get when in the same old chicken, fish, beef, etc. rut – and if you serve it up with an old-fashioned, flirty, “let me make you a good, home-cooked meal” – he might eventually realize that, if you stick it in front of him, and it tastes good, he’ll eat it with a smile. That’s what my husband says. He was omni when we started dating. Now he’s about 98% vegan

Don’t worry! You’ll get there!

This is easy to prevent. In the beginning, have a lot of substantial foods in your diet, such as potatoes, breads, pasta dishes, and soy products (which are NOT the boogeymen they are made out to be; for a great summary, check out http://www.vset.net/ – scroll to “Soybeans: Still Good for You). After a week or two, you’ll see that you’ll have less and less of a need to emphasize these “heavier” foods in your diet.

At restaurants, you can just ask that your dish be made with olive oil instead of butter, cheese and eggs left out, etc. I’ve never had a problem veganizing a dish if I couldn’t find at least one on the menu. And there usually are more than one already there.

A good site for “normal” vegan eating is http://www.peta.org/living/vegetarian-living/accidentally-vegan.aspx

Check out http://www.gentleworld.org for more recipe ideas.

I’ve been vegan for 9 years now, and have never experienced any problems whatsoever. It’s been great, and it didn’t take long to get into it.

I see some concerns on here that vegans need to depend on supplements. That’s not true at all, and remember that even B12 is readily available in fortified foods. A typical example would be most popular cereals.

Even non-vegans benefit from fortification. Many people, including non-vegans, don’t eat well, and as a result will tend to have various nutrient deficiencies. Vitamin D is one notable example, and to prevent rickets it has been included in milk since the beginning of the 20th century. Another example is Iodide which is included in salt. Fortification was set up to assist in public health, in a non-vegan environment (99 percent plus non-vegan). Fortification really is supplementation/vitamins already in our food. Everyone already eats the stuff and everyone already benefits. Because it’s already in the food, vegans don’t really need over the counter vitamins. But it’s totally debatable that many of these vitamins are life enhancing, even it isn’t true for all of them.

It is strange to point out that vegans are dependent on supplements, when that’s not really the case. You could argue that vegans depend on B12 fortification, but then again, non-vegans have depended on fortification since the beginning of fortification. Also, the extent to which B12 is necessary is still in dispute. I don’t regularly take B12 supplements and my blood tests always indicate a very healthy level, optimal actually.

One other thing. Non vegans don’t have any extra cholesterol in their diet, other than what their body creates. Cholesterol comes primarily from meat and dairy products. My family all has high cholesterol except for me, and the biggest difference is that I simply don’t eat any of these things. My cholesterol now is 112, and hasn’t strayed far from 120 over the entire time I’ve been vegan. My doctor said I have the best cholesterol he’s ever seen.

Cholesterol levels are affected by genetics, but when studies say this, they base it on studies of populations that are non-vegan. In other words, if your diet includes things like butter, and cheese, and steak, your genetic background will play a role in how it is metabolized. What they don’t tell you is that if you don’t eat any of these things, it is a guarantee that your cholesterol will drop. If you don’t eat it, there will be less going into your bloodstream.

There is reason to suspect that if all humans went vegan, their cholesterol levels would almost universally be 120, or very close to that. Our nearest relatives, including primates like chimpanzees that eat a 98% plus vegetarian diet in nature, and gorillas which are nearly at 100% vegetarian, naturally have a cholesterol level at 120, with little variation. Only when they are in captivity does their cholesterol go up to resemble human levels. That’s because they begin eating foods that include cholesterol from animal sources.

Being vegan has been great for me, and my family. My wife went vegetarian 7 years into our relationship (now its been 5 years for her), and she hasn’t gone back. Her cholesterol level dropped significantly, and is now in the normal healthy range. My family is all eating better and reaping the benefits.

I am very happy that Men’s Journal is publishing articles in support of Veganism. I’d be fine with it publishing articles to the contrary also, as long as it is accurate and doesn’t misinform about vegans themselves, their concerns, and the realities of their lifestyles. Veganism is an eminently reasonable. Not everyone needs to be vegan, but it should be known that Veganism is no fad, and is supported scientifically.

Sometimes vegans are wrong about social and environmental issues, but that is true for everyone else too. What matters is that they are concerned, are willing to adopt new habits, and change themselves when science shows that such changes will help.

And vegan concern with animals is not simply concern over life and death. I’m not so concerned with animal death myself, but with the needless suffering they endure.

I Hope the comments resume the level of courtesy they started out with!

Vegans and non-vegans alike deserve respect, so long as they are honest and reasonable.

Thanks Men’s Journal!

Thanks for the article!